Urban Joy, Faith & Rebellion with Jennifer J. Gaskin Author of The Exit

In this special episode of Public Hearing, Josh speaks to Jennifer J. Gaskin, author of the recently released The Exit - Living with Urban Joy. Tune in to hear the inspiration behind Jennifer’s debut book, and explore how faith and cultural traditions like Carnival create opportunities for joy in oppressive environments.

Public Hearing is a podcast from Action! by Design where we explore the unique challenges and opportunities facing Massachusetts' Gateway Cities as they work to create more equitable, liberated, and sustainable communities. Listen to all of our episodes at https://publichearing.buzzsprout.com/ and follow us on Twitter @PublicHearingMA to keep up to date on all things Public Hearing!

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Transcript

Joshua Croke (00:01):

Hello, Worcester and the world. You are listening to Public Hearing on WICN 90.5FM Worcester's only NPR affiliate station, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm your host Joshua Croke. And for this special episode of Public Hearing, we are joined by Jennifer J. Gaskin, author of The Exit - Living with Urban Joy. Public Hearing is Action! by Design's podcast and radio show, where we explore the unique challenges and opportunities facing Massachusetts Gateway cities as they work to create more equitable, liberated and sustainable communities. We're bringing you stories of community change work featuring the people and organizations working to make a difference in their cities. And we're so happy to be seeing listeners share and talk about this season and the importance of the work that we are are doing, um, specifically inside the season of digital equity, our most recent season on the show.

Joshua Croke (00:51):

Learn more about how you can support the show at publichearing.co. This is the Public Hearing podcast. Jennifer. Writer Orator. Revolutionary. Jennifer J. Gaskin is a Caribbean American, Black woman creator who delivers her message through direct, strong and honest oration and writing. Often misunderstood due to her raw and gritty delivery, she has dedicated her next journey to giving a voice to those also walking this path. She aspires to provide a voice for the voiceless and creates space and connection for healing. Writing has served as an outlet of healing and connection for Jennifer. She believes there is power in creating an opening to understanding through having intentional conversations, leading with love and sharing culture to enable authentic connection. This was the motivation behind the creation of the Worcester Caribbean American Carnival Association, which Jennifer leads the organization, connects the local community through a shared experience of culture and creates a shared annual tradition. On June 1st, 2023, Jennifer released her debut book, The Exit - Living with Urban Joy. The Exit takes readers through her life's trials and triumphs to understand how living with urban joy can make a difference. She's also one half of the podcast, Don't Touch My Podcast, founder and president of the Worcester Caribbean American Carnival Association and author of the Substack Newsletter, Bacchanal Business. Jennifer's bio ends with Black voices matter. Her voice matters. Our collective voices matter. And I am so glad to introduce our listeners to Jennifer. So Jennifer, welcome. Is there

Jennifer J. Gaskin (02:26):

Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here with you again.

Joshua Croke (02:29):

Yes. It's so always so fabulous to have you on the show. Before we dive in, is there anything else you'd like listeners to know about you?

Jennifer J. Gaskin (02:38):

Um, I think the, the, the main thing I would like people to know about me is first of all, don't believe anything you hear. Ask the question. I'm always open to a conversation. I'm always open to a dialogue, and I think it just makes everybody better if we're willing to, you know, at least hear each other out. We don't always have to agree, um, but we should at least hear people out. So I know a lot of times, you know, like my bio says, a lot of times I'm misunderstood. Um, or people get, you know, a sound bite from me or they read something from me, um, and maybe, you know, have an opinion. Um, but what I would say to everybody is don't just form an opinion on that. Um, if you have the opportunity, take the opportunity, introduce yourself, and let's have a conversation.

Joshua Croke (03:26):

Absolutely. Thank you for, for sharing that. And you and I actually connected what seems like so long ago now. 

Jennifer J. Gaskin (03:32):

I know <laugh>,

Joshua Croke (03:33):

When, when I interviewed you for a video series at Action Worcester, which was the nonprofit I had started at the time with my friend Kyla Pacheco. Shout out Kyla was were

Jennifer J. Gaskin (03:41):

Yes. Shout, shout out Kyla

Joshua Croke (03:42):

We were doing a video series called Let's Make Worcester insert like insert thing here. Um, yours was, Let's Make Worcester Vibrant. And since then I've had the pleasure of getting to know you and your work better. I've enjoyed the beautiful celebration of community you accomplish every year through the Worcester Caribbean Carnival. Um, and I tune into Don't Touch My Podcast that you make with a fabulous Giselle Flores. So shout out to Gisele as well. Um, and now a book, The Exit - Living with Urban Joy. Talk to me a bit about the journey.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (04:15):

Um, so really, you know, and much like everybody else, when the pandemic hit my life changed, right? I went from the 24/7, you know, out and about, you know, social, doing this, doing that. Um, and really what I figured out, um, very quickly in the pandemic is that I was working a lot and not taking care of myself. Um, I wasn't dealing with, um, you know, the things in my life that, that had happened or I had experienced, or even the, the positive things. Like I wasn't really taking the time to, to take those things in, um, experience it, deal with it. And I think the major thing, um, that kind of came to a head for me, um, during the pandemic was the grief around my father passing away in 2015. When my father passed away. I, I, I think I took like the regular, like three day bereavement, went straight back to work, went straight back into everything that I was doing, and I never really stopped and experienced, um, and really dealt with the grief.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (05:21):

Um, and during the pandemic, it literally came on top of me. Um, and then with the stuff that, you know, with the murder of George Floyd, um, you know, the insurrection, it, you know, the whole, the whole Trump presidency, right? Um, like it was really just really just traumatic. Um, and I knew at a certain point that I was, you know, for lack of a better way to describe it emotionally underwater. Um, and so I, you know, said, okay, how do I deal with this? Um, and I've been a writer my entire life. Um, and I journal and I do things like that to help. And I just decided one day like, you know what? I'm gonna write this down and I'm gonna share this because I imagine that there's a lot of people who are sitting in the same place as me right now, and maybe my words can help somebody.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (06:14):

Um, and that's really where it came from. And I, and I, I knew going into it that it would require a certain level of vulnerability. I don't think that I realized it fully until I started putting the words on the page and then thinking about somebody reading the words on the page. Um, so really that, that last hurdle, and, and frankly, I still think about it to this day, Giselle still gets voice notes with me, like, oh my God, people gonna know all all about me. But honestly, it's, it's been, um, reassuring, um, and, and people have really come out to be supportive. Um, and what I have found is that there is a lot of alignment and there is a lot of people who needed to hear these words. Um, and there are a lot of people who, um, can relate with my experiences and maybe see a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel, um, you know, after reading.

Joshua Croke (07:14):

Absolutely. And, and this book really does showcase so much of you and your experience and, and you really are vulnerable with the reader. And, um, I, I so appreciated hearing your words and, and your voice through that. As, as I, as I read my way through, through the book, and in the introduction of the book, you say, urban environments are not meant for joy. Our society doesn't encourage joy. We need joy. We need urban joy to survive. Talk to me about urban joy.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (07:44):

So, urban joy is intentional joy, and urban joy is, and I talk about it in the book and in the, in the introduction, urban joy is anything that is a, a opening for you to see hope and realize faith. Right? And sometimes for, for people of color, for people who are living in urban environments, that takes a different shape. When people talk about joy, they think about, you know, certain things, right? Like, you know, dancing, partying, whatever, whatever it may be that you think of when you think of the word joy. But sometimes for people who are oppressed, joy is paying your bills. Joy is walking into a place and not being judged for how you present. Um, you know, joy is really, you can find joy in the simplest things. And a lot of times for people who are oppressed, that's where we find joy because there's not, you know, we walk around this city that we live in and there's really like, what is, what is out there that's saying, Hey, you should be a happy person.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (08:54):

You should realize joy. Like there's nothing out there that is, that is encouraging, that we have to intentionally create that for ourselves. Um, and that's really what I talk about with urban joy, is intentionally creating that for yourself, celebrating your wins, no matter how small they are. You celebrate that win cuz it's a win regardless, you know? And even when bad things happen, the next day is gonna come, and that bad thing is only temporary. You can always turn the corner from that. And the other thing that I I want people to understand is that failure, you learn more through failure than you learn through success. When you're successful and everything goes your way, you don't learn. When you fail, and things are not always going your way, you figure out how to make things go your way. And that is urban joy.

Joshua Croke (9:50):

And it urban joy, like really just as soon as I saw the title, it, it placed me into like a visual space. 

Jennifer J. Gaskin (09:59):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Mm-hmm.

Joshua Croke (10:00):

There's, and as someone who is very passionate about placemaking and like nesting

Jennifer J. Gaskin (10:05):

Exactly.

Joshua Croke (10:06):

Into community, it really like makes something that can seem less tangible, more tangible, right? You can feel

Jennifer J. Gaskin (10:11):

Exactly, exactly.

Joshua Croke (10:12):

Almost feel the conditions in which joy needs to be brought about in specific environments. And so I appreciated that kind of framing.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (10:22):

And I like even for you, right? You know, I see you, you come out and you show up authentically as yourself everywhere that you go. And I'm sure that you've had all kinds of responses to that, right? But you still do it and you still do it with a smile on your face, and you're still like, Hey, I'm showing up and I'm showing up as I am, and you could accept me or not. I really don't care because I'm gonna still be happy and in my place, that's urban joy.

Joshua Croke (10:49):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you mentioned faith briefly already, and you talk a lot about faith in this book. Um, and I've had a very rocky relationship with

Jennifer J. Gaskin (10:58):

Oh, likewise, 

Joshua Croke (10:59):

Quote unquote faith myself, 

Jennifer J. Gaskin (11:00):

Right? 

Joshua Croke (11:02):

Yeah. Being raised very conservative Baptist in an environment that did not welcome, embrace, or even acknowledge my queerness. And as you communicate in the book, you've tapped into your spirituality separate from organized religion, which is very much where I am at in my own spiritual evolution. And one thing that I didn't realize too specifically until I was reading The Exit, your book was the gut reaction, like almost this queasy feeling I felt when facing the word faith. 

Jennifer J. Gaskin (11:29):

Right? Right.

Joshua Croke (11:30):

And so. Yeah. Right. And I was like, whoa, I didn't know I had this really difficult relationship with a word that means so much, and it's nuanced and it means things to other people. And so, from your perspective, can you share a bit about why faith is an important part of tapping into joy?

Jennifer J. Gaskin (11:48):

I think we, you, you have to make space for that, right? Like, when I think about it, um, and, and I talk a little bit about it in the book, but when you think about people being enslaved, when you think about enslaved Africans, what, like, what was happiness for them? What was joy for them? What was making sure that they kept waking up every day and doing what they were doing every single day? There had to be something, there had to be some driver, some opening there for you to have hope and resilience, right? And that's, that that opening is faith. And however you get there, whether it's organized religion or spirituality, like, like we talk about, and I, and I talk about it in the book, spirituality is individual, right? Like, however you connect from a spiritual perspective is, is yours. And you can mold that to what you want it to be.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (12:47):

What is most important, um, which my grandfather told me very early on in my life was that you are a good person. And, and he used to say, you don't need a book to be a good person. Like, you know, right and wrong, and you know how to be a good person. You know how to see another human being as another human being, right? And that's really what it comes down to. And when you think about the, the various religions and, and what they teach in the book, most of the stories are about treating other, other people as human beings, being a good person, um, showing up in certain situations, not doing certain situations, right? So it's all around just being a good person and showing up as a human being for other human beings. I do feel like, you know, when I think about faith, I do feel like you have to have a connection to some- something outside of yourself, right? Whether it's a higher being, whether it's, you know, a spiritual practice, whatever it is, you have to have a connection to something outside of yourself to keep yourself going. When you think about enslaved Africans, like the conditions that they were living in, the things that were happening, they had to have something outside of themselves to continue on. And when I think about faith, that's what I think about. That's something outside of yourself that keeps you going.

Joshua Croke (14:12):

And that connects I think 

Jennifer J. Gaskin (14:13):

And it's, go ahead 

Joshua Croke (14:14):

really, really strongly to a section of your book. And if you're willing, I'd love if you'd read a segment for our listeners, um, on page nine. Um, it's really, you know, it speaks for itself. So I'd love if you'd be willing to, to read a piece for us.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (14:29):

Absolutely. Sure. Every August, we were in Franklin Park to participate in the Boston Caribbean American Carnival. In the nineties, attendance averaged between 300,000 and 500,000. Caribbean people and others converge upon this area to celebrate the culture of the Caribbean. Caribbean Carnival is a rebellion. It is not a street party. It is an act of rebellion against enslavers, oppressors and all of the European social norms that we Black and Brown people of the Caribbean have been and continue to be held to. In Grenada, we play a Jab. The Jab Jab loosely translates to Devil Devil. The character is covered in oil, depicting the skin of our African ancestors, and drags a broken chain to signify the release from slavery. The Jab character is the wildest in the carnival. The Jab does whatever it is that its European captors would find inappropriate or had been disallowed for enslaved African people.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (15:36):

The Jab drinks in excess, the Jab dances crazily and seductively. The Jab jumps on cars and climbs fences. The Jab is a savage. The Jab savagery is isolated to, to enjoying everything that rum, music and dancing can offer. We the women and men in the carnival control our bodies and sexuality. We are extreme, we are wild. That is the protest. That is the rebellion. Women are dressed in masquerade costumes, often bikinis or very revealing clothing, adorned with feathers and jewels. Men may dress equally provocatively or sometimes in basketball shorts that are bejeweled and feather backpacks, similar to those worn by the women. We can dance out in the streets, no matter the size or composition of our bodies. We are free to do what we like. This is our rebellion against white enslavers who controlled, raped, and abused our bodies.

Joshua Croke (16:37):

Thank you for reading that. In your recent TEDx Roxbury Talk and congrats. Congrats on the TEDx stage.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (16:45):

Thank you. Thank you. By the way, it's up today on the TEDx platform, so I'm like official, official now, <laugh>..

Joshua Croke (16:50):

Yes. Amazing. You talk about, and, and this is a quote, a modern enslavement systems and policies to keep us captive. And when I read that section of the book, and I've seen and experienced Carnival, and it just, the power in that visible rebellion through dance, through music, through this joy, this urban joy. You talk about, um, you talk about that in your book. So can, and when you talk about a modern enslavement, can you share with us how that has felt and experienced?

Jennifer J. Gaskin (17:27):

And, and it's, it's, it's challenging to even speak about, to be honest, because a lot of times that experience is denied, um, you know, by society, right? And a lot of times when we are raising situations that occur to occur, you know, it's always like, oh, well, you know, maybe it's something else. Maybe it's this, maybe it's that. And there's not, you know, an immediate acknowledgement of this experience. I'm 46 years old, I've been a Black woman my entire life. Like, I know what it looks like when somebody's treating me differently because of who I am. So when somebody says to you like, or denies that experience, it's, it's infuriating. Um, and at some points in my life, I feel like it's made me question, you know, my own, you know, perception of, of reality, right? Because you constantly have people saying, that's not the case.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (18:28):

I think we see it right here in the city of Worcester. If we take the experience over the past 10 years, we’re marking our 10 year anniversary, um, for the Worcester Caribbean American Carnival this year, if we look at the past 10 years and the commentary that comes out after Carnival, like we, we, the the response to us is completely different. Um, and a couple of months ago, I spoke about this at the city council, how, you know, policies and procedures can be used to oppress people, and we see it, right? Last year, the whole drama was around, you know, a a young lady had jumped up on one of the police cars and was dancing on one of the police cars at the carnival. And the thing that I share with people is there was multiple women that did it. There was white, a white woman that I seen a video of, and a Black woman that I seen a video of. The video that was sent to the city of Worcester was the Black woman.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (19:28):

And the commentary basically like, they're savages. You know, they're jumping on the police car, you know, the police should hang their heads for, for allowing this. And it was just like, this is racially charged language that was being used in that email and someone in the city department that is paid by the city of Worcester forwarded that email, email to me and said, your event is now on probation. How? First of all, the Worcester Police Department had no, no, no issue. It happened. They dealt with it, and we moved on. They weren't concerned about it, but why would you send a racially charged email to me? Right? Like, that is so traumatic. It's traumatic. And then for me to then have to fight back with the city to say, wait a minute, why is this person saying this? Why does this department think that they have the authority to do this to us?

Jennifer J. Gaskin (20:31):

And, you know, get really vocal about it. But again, and like I talk about in, in, in my TED talk, why do we always have to do this? Why do I have to stand up in my trauma and fight? Like, that's not fair. And for me to go to the city council and say like, you know, give receipts, like, I gave facts. I'm not making up stories. I'm giving you facts. That I can show you in black and white of how we have been dealt with over the past 10 years by the city. And still in that conversation it was, oh, well, maybe, you know, we need to look at the policies and we need to look at no true acknowledgement of what we all know actually is occurring.

Joshua Croke (21:17):

Absolutely. Like a societal gaslighting. That's just like, you know,

Jennifer J. Gaskin (21:20):

Totally. Totally.

Joshua Croke (21:21):

And, and, you know, very presently, we're, we're speaking at a time where the Supreme Court just tore down Affirmative Action.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (21:27):

Yeah. Just tore down Affirmative Action. Meanwhile, you have, you know, Justice Clarence Thomas is sitting there who benefited from affirmative action that now wants to pull the ladder up behind him. You have a white, a white supreme, a white woman, Supreme Court court justice, who also likely benefited from affirmative action, because we all know that white women are the ones who benefit the most from affirmative action. It's not Black and Brown people. Mm. But yet she also voted in favor of striking it down. So basically what you're saying is, I'm fine with climbing the ladder and getting to the top, but I have no interest in letting anybody else do stuff.

Joshua Croke (22:11):

Yeah. And in the, you, you also talk about in the book, the, and I'm forgetting the exact quote, but how, um, America has this, um, you know, this, this focus around struggle.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (22:29):

Yep. 

Joshua Croke (22:30):

You talk about struggle, right? And, and, and maybe you can uplift some of that and how that connect, and it does connect to this conversation around gaslighting and the pull yourself up by your bootstraps fan, like fallacy that, you know. Yeah. And, and, you know, and all of this, and I think in some ways America glorifies the story of struggle, but not looking at struggle of folks that are being truly oppressed and legislating oppression on Black and Brown folks. You know? And so struggle is something that needs to be challenged and, and pushed past and, and joy interweaves and connects in there as well.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (23:08):

But it's like, why does everything have to be a struggle though? Right, like, why instead of saying like, if a Black or Brown person, or, or even, you know, even, even a LGBTQ plus person says, this has been my experience, right. And I'm not able to move forward in my life and achieve whatever it is, right? It could be I want to get a sandwich and they're not letting me in because whatever. Why do we always have to struggle through that? 

Joshua Croke (23:38):

That's right. 

Jennifer J. Gaskin (23:39):

And why is it always our responsibility to fix it? Like that, that's the part that bothers me, right? Like, why do I have to like I didn't create racism. 

Jennifer J. Gaskin (23:48):

I didn't go to Africa and kid kidnap, um, people, human beings and bring them to America and make laws that made it legal for us to rape, you know, Black women and keep their, their children as, as enslaved people. Like, I didn't do that. So why is it now my responsibility to fix it? That that's the part that, that makes me upset? Right. You know, talking in the, in the, in my Ted talk about being an Angry Black Woman, like, I have 1,001 reasons to be angry, but I don't wanna walk around angry all the time. I want, I wanna have joy. I wanna enjoy and experience, you know, my children and grandchildren. I wanna go on vacation with my husband. I don't wanna walk around angry all the time, and it should not be my responsibility. I didn't create it. 

Joshua Croke (24:42):

And you say in the book, our, this is a quote, “our whole system, society is designed to disconnect you from your intuition.” 

Jennifer J. Gaskin (24:51):

Absolutely. 

Joshua Croke (24:52):

That also stood out to me, and I'm often driven by imagining different ways of being, of living, of shaping communities. And so this piece really stuck with me about society has been designed, the, and I think maybe really classifying this as like the American experience 

Jennifer J. Gaskin (25:08):

Yep. Yep. 

Joshua Croke (25:09):

To disconnect you from your intuition. And I'd love to hear more about this from you. And we have about two or three minutes left, so we're getting close to that time. And we knew this would happen.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (25:18):

Yeah. We knew this was, we already know that when we get talking, we can talk all day. And, and that's exactly it. It disconnects you from your intuition, because if we are confused, if we are, um, not focused, then you can be manipulated. It's just like being in a relationship or in a situation with a narcissist. If they can knock you off of your feet and make you question, then you're easily, easily manipulated. Right? And we see it like in the most mundane ways. For example, my 18 year old just graduated, um, high school, shout out to Makai, congratulations. But the whole story for them was, you need to go to college, you need to go, you know, amazing Ivy League College, cost yourself $200,000 in student loans because you need this to be successful when you, and I know from being out in the world that that is not true, but they gaslight you and they make you think that that is the only way that you're gonna be successful. So if you do anything less than that, they've already set you up to think that you're a failure. So now you could be manipulated, right? Because now you think you didn't do what you were supposed to do. So now I can tell you what you're supposed to do. That's, or how you're supposed to live.

Joshua Croke (26:39):

Mm. Jen, I could talk to you forever. As you know, I, I wanna encourage folks to read a copy of The Exit - Living with Urban Joy. We've been talking to Jennifer Gaskin for this special episode of Public Hearing. One of the things that really stood out to me was the, the rawness and the connection to your, your experience. Um, and also how writing this book transformed your, some of your perception of your own

Jennifer J. Gaskin (27:08):

Self. Absolutely. Uh, yep. Of myself and of my community, of people around me, the whole thing.

Joshua Croke (27:13):

And so I, I wanna end on one of my favorite quotes from the book, which is, “even though I have long thought of myself as someone who lives authentically, it was when I tried to put myself on paper that I realized that was not completely true.”

Jennifer J. Gaskin (27:27):

Mm-hmm.

Joshua Croke (27:28):

So Jen, thank you so much for joining us.

Jennifer J. Gaskin (27:30):

Thank you so much for having me.

Joshua Croke (27:27):

We will include the links to follow Jennifer in our show notes. Make sure you check those out and stay updated about the important work that Jen is doing and the stories that she is sharing. And thank you listeners for listening to Public Hearing. Um, I'm your host, Joshua Croke, founder of Action! by Design. Our audio producer is Giuliano D’Orazio, thank you to the production team, Kellee Kosiorek and Jack Tripp, who make this show possible. The work continues, folks. Thanks for listening.