Rethinking MCAS and Graduation Requirements with Jennifer Davis Carey

This episode aired on 10/30/24 on WICN 90.5FM

Hey Worcester! In this episode of Public Hearing, I’m sitting down with Jennifer Davis Carey, Executive Director of the Worcester Education Collaborative (WEC), to break down Massachusetts Ballot Question 2: the possible removal of MCAS as a high school graduation requirement. Jen and I explore what it might mean in Mass if districts are left to set their own graduation standards and consider what we want a diploma to signify in a changing world.  From academic rigor and equity to the skills our graduates need, we dig into the implications of this ballot question and the future of education in Massachusetts.

Whether you’re a parent, a student, or a community member, this episode offers important insights into how we can create better pathways to success for all students.

Key Topics:

• Overview of Question 2 and the implications of what removing MCAS as a graduation requirement might mean in Massachusetts
• Balancing academic rigor with equity and access
• Alternative pathways for graduation and future educational standards
• The role of soft skills, project-based learning, and adapting education to today’s workforce needs
• What Worcester is doing to address educational equity, from MassCore to community-driven reading initiatives

Chapter Markers:

• 00:00 – Introduction: Exploring Mass Ballot Question 2 with Jennifer Davis Carey
• 02:07 – What Question 2 might mean for Massachusetts schools
• 04:36 – The future of academic rigor and graduation requirements
• 08:53 – Massachusetts MassCore standards and Worcester’s local commitment
• 13:12 – Worcester Education Collaborative’s stance and focus areas
• 15:28 – How soft skills and critical thinking shape student success
• 18:04 – The importance of lifelong learning and adaptability in education
• 20:38 – The rise of AI in education and potential impacts on learning
• 21:40 – Worcester Education Collaborative’s upcoming initiatives

Tune in every Wednesday at 6 PM on WICN 90.5 FM or wherever you get your podcasts. Let’s keep the conversation going on what we can do to support every student’s success in Worcester and beyond!

Learn more and follow at QueerForCities.com/PublicHearing

Created & Hosted by Joshua Croke.
Our Audio Producer is Giuliano D'Orazio.

Available anywhere you listen to podcasts.

Transcript

PH002_Jennifer-Davis-Carey_10.30.24

[00:00:00] Joshua Croke: Hello, Worcester in the world. You're listening to Public Hearing on WICN 90. 5 FM, Worcester's only NPR affiliate station, and wherever you get your podcasts. I'm your host, Joshua Croke. I'm a multidisciplinary designer, artist, and urbanist committed to building thriving, equitable, and sustainable communities.

[00:00:18] I specialize in facilitating community engagement, co creating innovation strategies that advance community priorities, Developing intersectional partnerships, and implementing community projects with a focus on advancing equitable development in neighborhoods, cities, and beyond. 

[00:00:33] Public Hearing is back and under the umbrella of my latest project, Queer for Cities.

[00:00:38] Queer for Cities is out to make queer a joyful norm and cultivate inclusive communities, because we believe that when we create more queer, inclusive cities, we create better cities for everyone. 

[00:00:49] Today on public hearing, we're diving into mass ballot question number two, the possible elimination of MCAS as a high school graduation requirement with Jennifer Davis Carey, executive director of the Worcester Education Collaborative.

[00:01:03] I want to note that conversations, positions, and perspectives shared on Public Hearing do not reflect any official positions of WICN. And in the spirit of transparency, I will also mention that I am a board member, a proud board member, of the Worcester Education Collaborative. Let's dive in. Jen, welcome.

[00:01:20] Thanks for being on the show today. 

[00:01:22] Jennifer Davis Carey: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to talk about this issue. 

[00:01:25] Joshua Croke: It is a really pressing issue. I think it's one of the most contested issues right now on the mass ballot, and the WEC has been doing a lot of to bring attention to conversations around not only this ballot measure, but things that folks should be considering around enhancing and amplifying education, making education more equitable, accessible, better resourcing education.

[00:01:48] And so I thought this was a very important and timely conversation to talk about things that you and the organization have been thinking about, talking about, and considering as it relates to this question. And so I want to just start with, what do you feel is really important for folks to be considering regarding this question?

[00:02:07] That may not be front and center in these conversations. 

[00:02:09] Jennifer Davis Carey: I think there are a couple of things. One thing that I think it's important for every voter to remember is that this ballot question will not eliminate the MCAS, the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System, but we'll eliminate it as a graduation requirement and we'll leave it to districts to decide what the graduation requirement is for the students enrolled in their high schools.

[00:02:36] I think it's important for us as Members of the Commonwealth to think about the issue more broadly. A lot has changed since the MCAS was instituted as a graduation requirement over 20 years ago. And I think it's important for us to think about what do we want a graduation a high school diploma to mean.

[00:03:01] What do we want it to signify? for the student, and what do we want it to signify for higher education for colleges and universities that they may decide to apply to and enroll in? What do we want it to represent to employers? I think that a single test does not give us that, and that as we open up this conversation, regardless of what the results of the ballot initiative are, that we do enter into a serious conversation about what should be the graduation requirements.

[00:03:38] Massachusetts has a very robust set of standards, and I think that for coursework and very robust set of frameworks associated with coursework that guide content and guide instruction in the classroom. And I think it's important for us to look at those as we think about what we want students high school diploma to be able to attest that students know and are able to do.

[00:04:08] I think the high school diploma needs to be able to certify that a student has mastered a certain body of knowledge, a certain set of skills, and a set of habits of mind. Things like the ability to Tenacity things like being able to work cooperatively, that all of those need to be a part of our conversation about what high school is, what high school means.

[00:04:36] Joshua Croke: A lot of the conversation right now around this question is, there are folks raising, for example, Worcester Education Collaborative recently did a point counterpoint conversation with Melissa Verdier, who's the president of the Educational Association of Worcester, which is the union representing teachers in the Worcester public schools and the Worcester Regional Chamber of Commerce commerce President and former Lieutenant Governor Tim Murray, Tim Murray taking a no on question two, which would maintain the existing requirements of MCAS as a graduation requirement and Melissa taking the position of voting yes on question two, which would be to eliminate MCAS as a graduation requirement.

[00:05:18] One of the. I think overarching themes that was being discussed was this issue of academic rigor or the the standard that we hold students to. And I think something that has, has been coming forward for me and kind of the back and forth of consideration is around equity and accessibility and the resourcing of schools to, to students.

[00:05:43] Best prepare and support students in reaching this requirement. And I know that they're the percentage of people that this really impacts on a city and state scale is about 1 percent of the student population are not graduating because of their inability to pass the MCAS. So as it relates to the conversation around equity, is there a disparity in the students who are not passing MCAS and is that something that needs to be really factored into folks decisions around this vote?

[00:06:18] Jennifer Davis Carey: I think, yes, although, as you mentioned, the majority of students do pass, and there are a number of ways for students to demonstrate that competency. It can be through a portfolio review and a number of other measures, so students do have a number of ways to be able to pass. quote unquote, pass the MCAS, besides just sitting there answering the MCAS questions.

[00:06:45] So in that regard, the state has gone a significant way in making ways for students to creating ways for students to be able to demonstrate their, those competencies. I think one of the things, and this goes back to what we require of students The MCAS is one thing. It is a, as I like to conceptualize it, it is a snapshot where a student's full set of coursework, their transcript, is more akin to a home movie.

[00:07:18] And if you were to take a snapshot of any particular movie, that gives you what's happening at that moment. And not the full story. So I think coupling, or coupling coursework with whatever we do is critically important. The MCAS is useful in terms of It's role in education as a diagnostic test to be able to indicate what kids strengths and weaknesses are, what areas a school needs to focus on, what areas a district needs to focus on.

[00:07:56] And from my perspective, that is the tremendous value of the MCAS. However, it is the coursework that is the, the A significant predictor of how kids are going to persist in in college or university if they choose to go. We still have a number of students who graduate having passed the MCAS, but are still struggling and taking remedial courses when they enroll in high school and college.

[00:08:30] So we need to be able to focus on what the high school curriculum is. Right now the graduation requirements in the commonwealth are are passing the MCAS passing a American history slash civics course, and phys, and physical education. To me, those are minimal requirements. 

[00:08:53] The colleges our state colleges and universities require the mass core, which is a set of coursework including English, math, the sciences, foreign language, the arts, and phys ed. That, to me, is a robust measure, a robust expectation for kids of what they take and of teaching and learning. Now one of the things that we will have to do is think about do we want to make the Mass Corps a statewide requirement for graduation.

[00:09:28] Right now, it's a recommendation, but not a requirement. And not all districts do. use it as a graduation requirement. So that's something we really do need to think about. 

[00:09:40] Joshua Croke: And for listeners, Worcester has committed to the standard of upholding the mass core as a graduation requirement locally. Is that correct?

[00:09:49] Jennifer Davis Carey: That's correct. That's correct. 

[00:09:50] Joshua Croke: And so some of the, some of this kind of sits around the challenges of like, Legislation and you know what gets put into a bill that's being proposed and what has what is it and I think one of the things that's been challenging for me and has been really helpful in conversations that I've had with folks is one of I think people who are looking at this from an equity perspective but are considering a no vote on question two is coming from the place of That a no vote would simply or a yes vote would simply eliminate The MCAS as a graduation requirement and it would not be putting in any additional requirements across the state so it begs a question of when might new requirements be put forward by the legislature. 

[00:10:39] Jennifer Davis Carey: I think there is considerable urgency to this, if the measure passes, that we need to support the legislature in getting a bill enacted that would require coursework or some other measure in order to make sure that kids have the skills and knowledge and habits of mind and that those are consistent from one district to another so that a young person with a diploma from a small town in western Massachusetts knows that they can compete.

[00:11:16] With a student from a high wealth district in one of the 128 suburbs, I think that will be critically important. And again, I go back to the idea of looking to the Mass Corps and looking to our state standards and curriculum frameworks as we develop that. Worcester also has been working for a number of years on a project that is called Portrait of a Graduate, Portrait of a Learner, thinking about what is it that this diploma means?

[00:11:51] What are we telling students? What are we telling families? What are we telling colleges and universities and employers that this diploma certifies? And I think that is important. You know, in the 21st century, we are an increasingly globalized society. Massachusetts is an increasingly knowledge based economy. And we need to be thinking about what that means in terms of what students learn in the classroom, in terms of, you know, clear content, subject based knowledge, and what they learn in terms of the other, what we used to call soft skills, but I don't think are soft skills like critical thinking like clear, crisp communication, and so forth.

[00:12:42] All of those things need to be a part of what we look at when we think about what the next iteration is, right? regardless of whether the ballot initiative prevails or not. 

[00:12:53] Joshua Croke: You're listening to WICN 90. 5 FM, Worcester's only NPR affiliate station, and wherever you get your podcasts, we're talking to Jennifer Davis Carey, Executive Director of the Worcester Education Collaborative, about mass ballot question two, whether or not the MCAS should be eliminated as a graduation requirement.

[00:13:12] Jen, has WEC taken a formal position on question two? 

[00:13:16] Jennifer Davis Carey: We have not. It is our belief that we need to open up the conversation, and we will certainly be weighing in after the ballot initiative on a, on what we can do to make sure that the expectations for graduation are as rigorous as they need to be to assure that kids have what they need when they graduate.

[00:13:39] Joshua Croke: I appreciate that you brought up the conversation around what formerly were called soft skills that we're seeing more and more are some of the leading desires of employers for young people to have, whether it's collaborative skills, team, team building skills, critical thinking skills, and now having been out of college for many years myself and in the workforce has as an employee as an employer that is one of the areas that I consistently see as one of the greatest challenges is how how are we, you know, developing young people into problem solvers, using critical thinking, taking a self starting approach to addressing problems or challenges and, and seeking solutions.

[00:14:19] I'm also thinking a lot about issues related to technology and artificial intelligence and how that is changing the landscape of education. It's also changing the, the workforce and I could go down a whole rabbit hole in talking about how If we lived in a more equitable society, how the benefits of technology and artificial intelligence could outweigh the, the fears around job replacement or job elimination for many people.

[00:14:50] But that is sadly a reality under kind of the, the strong capitalist society that we live in here in the U S is folks are looking at losing jobs because of automation and technology and more and more Jobs are high skill needs. So, you know, higher ed or job training programs, workforce development pathways are really critical.

[00:15:15] How do you feel the landscape of education is changing? Or maybe I should frame this as what do you feel needs to evolve? in our landscape of education to lead to better and better outcomes for youth in our community. 

[00:15:28] Jennifer Davis Carey: I think, you know, because we live in a, in a society and in the context of an economy that changes much more rapidly than any of us could ever have anticipated, and the, the particular skills or the particular information that, People need to have, in order to be successful, or in order to participate, change.

[00:15:52] I think it is those so called soft skills that we need to put increased emphasis on. And how you do that in a classroom. Is there, are there opportunities for cooperative work in a classroom? Are there opportunities for project based learning, where kids can take a real world problem and come up with a solution to it, and apply what can be seen as theoretical unimportant knowledge and information to a real world, a real world situation. I think that will become increasingly important. And giving teachers the flexibility, opening up that classroom time, to give teachers the flexibility to do that will be increasingly important.

[00:16:41] Joshua Croke: As a WPI alum, project based learning is a big thing pushed on campus and also just kind of a core of how I engage in, in a lot of the, the youth work that I do um running Love Your Labels. We have a youth fashion design program that uses project based learning standards as a way to really root young people, not only in skills development, but answering questions like, and how much you face in project based kind of real world scenarios is it always brings things up that isn't necessarily written down in the curriculum, but poses like really critical questions to young people around, how are we going to solve this issue? And like, we might be needing to apply our skills at point number three, but points one and two are actually a little bit more kind of practical or relational and that piece being so, so critical.

[00:17:32] What are some of the other, you know, whether it's connected to the conversation around Requirements and academic rigor across the state of Massachusetts, or even here in the, in the Worcester public schools. What are one of the things that I like to say on this show is that we hope that folks listening to public hearing, bring something back to the dinner table and start conversation with, you know, their family, friends, community members.

[00:17:58] What are some of the things you think folks should be talking about more as it relates to education in our city? 

[00:18:04] Jennifer Davis Carey: I think one of the things that we need to talk about is the recognition that, you know, this is not our grandparents economy. Young people are not going to have one job for 20 years. Or one field, be in one field for 20 years.

[00:18:23] Yes, there are areas where people specialize, but even in those areas of specialization, change is so rapid that people need to have the skills and habits of mind to be able to pivot and to be nimble and that can be demonstrated in a number of ways. You know, again, through projects, through portfolios, that sort of thing.

[00:18:48] I think also a recognition that That learning will never be complete, and that we need to be preparing young people to be lifelong learners both in terms of acquisition of specific skills, but in acquisition of knowledge and information. 

[00:19:09] And I think one of the things that is, is haunting us. One of the things that keeps me awake at night is reading and the extent to which young people can read material, both fiction and non fiction material lengthy chapters, to be able to analyze them, to be able to articulate what they received from that and to be able to communicate that to others, either in writing or in speaking.

[00:19:42] But I think that is something that in our in our increasingly telegraphed communications to each other's, telegraphic communications to each other's, we tend to want to get to the heart of an issue and not think about what the nuances and subtleties are around that issue. So I think that is also something that's critically important that I hope people will, will take to the dinner table.

[00:20:08] Joshua Croke: Absolutely. One are one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot and have watched kind of videos about as well. And I mentioned AI in the conversation around education and the increasing use of platforms like chat GPT as a mechanism for doing all sorts of tasks. And I can tell you completely that it has become Part of my often day to day in everything from drafting emails to doing some research or helping to support research.

[00:20:38] And there is this dialogue around, you know, is it beneficial to allow or encourage this type of utilization in the classroom? And, and that's something that I'm on. I'm very much on the pro side of, of incorporating and looking at how do we integrate technology and these. tools into the, into the classroom.

[00:20:57] And also there is that challenge of like, is Is ChachiBT, or is AI, like, actually reducing people's, like, reliance on their own grammatical skills and things like that as well? So, more, more to come related to conversations around AI, ChachiBT, and the landscape of education in the workforce. But in our, in our last few minutes here, Jen we talked a little bit about the work of the Worcester Education Collaborative, and I mentioned that I'm a proud board member of the, of the organization and it's been great to see the growth of WEC over the, the years that I've been in service to the organization.

[00:21:37] What is on the horizon for the Worcester Education Collaborative? 

[00:21:40] Jennifer Davis Carey: There are a number of things that we are, are working on. We will be continuing our community briefing series. So the public can look forward to a conversation about the Worcester Public Schools budget. We can, we'll be talking continually talking about Mass Corps.

[00:21:59] We'll also be talking about school climate and new approaches to school discipline that are developmental approaches as opposed to punitive approaches. We are also crafting a city wide reading initiative that is not quite ready for prime time, but as I mentioned, we are very concerned about kids reading achievement and what that will mean for the quality of their own lives, but the qual our, The quality of our shared life here in Worcester, and so we'll be working on that.

[00:22:36] We also have three extraordinary parents who work with us who are part of our, we call it our FACES team, our Family and Community Engagement Specialists, who are working very closely with us on engaging parents more in the education process so that they can better support their own child but support their school and the district also.

[00:23:01] Thank you. We also are running two programs. One is our reading together program that is active in nine schools this year, up from seven. And that program brings retired teachers into classrooms in grades K through three to read a book to the Children, which they can then take, The kids can take home do a classroom activity, and we also invite parents to join in so that they can see ways to encourage reading with their children at home.

[00:23:34] And then WooLabs is our other program. That is an after school program for kids in grades K through 6, and we partner with a number of our teachers. youth serving organizations to bring project based learning into the classroom. And those projects are run with the young people, and also facilitated by our fellows who are college students who are trained and work with us over the course of a year.

[00:24:05] Joshua Croke: Well, thanks so much for sharing about those, those programs. In our last minute here, so for folks listening, there's a very important federal election coming up on November 5th. I hope everyone is registered to vote and is not only considering the, you know, the presidential ticket, but also down the ballot and issues like the mass ballot initiative around question two that we've been talking about today with Jen Carey from the Worcester education collaborative, but also the other questions that are going to be on your mass ballot but This coming year, it will now prompt our city and municipal elections for November 2025 and school committee is a really critical one that supports or challenges the work within the district. And so Jen, just if you were to give folks one question that they should ask prospective candidates to help them make a decision around who's going to be supporting equitable education in Worcester, what would that question be?

[00:25:06] Jennifer Davis Carey: I think the question would be, What do we want the value of a Worcester Public Schools diploma to be? What do we want that diploma to mean in the lives of each kid in our schools? 

[00:25:21] Joshua Croke: Jen, thank you so much for, for coming on the show. 

[00:25:24] You've been listening to Public Hearing, a show about the second largest city in New England, Worcester, Mass., where we have interesting and timely conversations about issues that impact our community. I'm Joshua Croke, the creator and host of Public Hearing. Our audio producer is Giuliano D'Orazio. You can learn more and follow Public Hearing and other projects of Queer for Cities at queerforcities.com. Thanks for listening.